Dave,
Thank you for your understanding. Ron has taken so many unfair hits and still remains strong as our leader.
We all feel bad about the John B. situation and wish him the best success in getting healthy again so we can all (play together in our little cars) "Quote" from My Girl Kay.

Please know that we as a Board want to hear from all members and want to help and grow this club to benefit all whenever and wherever it is needed..

John Capone IAOC Treasurer


        

Marc,

I can somewhat understand your thoughts and feelings about our Board and I believe you have good intentions as we all do.
My concerns are this: When the club was falling apart 6-8 months ago. Why were you not then questioning things and looking into it? Why has it taken "You a founding father of this club" over 4 years to mention the whole election thing until now? Former Presidents and people from high ranking positions of organizations have always given their input if they feel the need to help a cause that they believe in. You being the George Washington of our group should have spoken up and said "Whats going on?"
Instead you have been quiet for over four years. These built up feelings inside you could have been used as a resource instead of a built up frustration. Please help us all understand.
You were a great 1st President of our group and by taking that premier position your responsibility will never end to lead us and guide us to do things correctly.

Respectfully,
John Capone IAOC Treasurer


        

John Capone wrote:
When the club was falling apart 6-8 months ago. Why were you not then questioning things and looking into it?
----------
John,
So let me get this right.....the fact that the Club hasn't followed the Bylaws, and hasn't held elections, and revised the Bylaws to take out the requirement to have elections.....all of this is my fault?
That is the same logic as speeding past a police officer every day for a year, then having a crash and blaming the cop for not giving you a ticket a year earlier.
I have always been willing to provide input to anyone that has ever asked. Amphipoda and I talked quite a bit during his term. I don't think I've ever turned away from anyone asking for input or advice.....I may have, if so, I'm sorry...but I can't think of any instance.
I didn't know that the Bylaws were being revised until Ron mentioned Saturday night in Celina that they the revision had been completed. I wasn't given a copy....a saw one in Celina and later looked at them on the Internet. When I was President, EVERY member received a hard copy of the Bylaws, and EVERY new member received a hard copy. I don't know if that is necessary or not, but my guess is that only people who made a point to track down a copy in Celina, or the people who have made an effort to go see them on the web page, have any idea that they have even been revised to remove the election wording.
But it does bother me that because I bring it up now, you first say that I jumped to some conclusions in the whole matter, implying that I was out of line....then when I re-state my concerns in a follow up email, you say you somewhat understand but go on to indicate that I was in the wrong for not bringing it up earlier! Would my call for an election have been received any better six months ago?
The Board can fix this very easy. Put a note in the newsletter asking for people who would be willing to serve and would like their name added to a ballot. There's a good chance that only the current Board will be willing to serve. Make up a ballot, have an election, and you're done. Everyone will be happy, and you will have followed the spirit of the Bylaws. Then, the first thing the elected Board should do is revise the Bylaws back!

Marc.


        

Marc,
I don't want to get angry with you and I hope the same on your side, We are communicating and that is good.

Marc writes: So let me get this right.....the fact that the Club hasn't followed the Bylaws, and hasn't held elections, and revised the Bylaws to take out the requirement to have elections.....all of this is my fault? No not at all Marc, I never said that.

Marc writes: But it does bother me that because I bring it up now, you first say that I jumped to some conclusions in the whole matter, implying that I was out of line....then when I re-state my concerns in a follow up email, you say you somewhat understand but go on to indicate that I was in the wrong for not bringing it up earlier! Would my call for an election have been received any better six months ago? Your second email was more defined and detailed and easier to understand. I think 6 months ago would have made a BIG difference for sure, It would have shown all members that during a time of disfunction that former leaders came up to the plate to make things right...

If we all agree for elections It should take place at the end of our terms this is the fair thing I feel. Just because you feel I am not a bonafide Board member, I would believe there are many members that beg to differ with you.

Marc, I spoke to you in Celina and we discussed things and elections never came up. I could feel you had issues with things and I could not pinpoint what they were exactly. You were very quiet to our President Ron Green also. Knowing what I know now I wish we would have had you in our Board meeting for a bit to discuss things. I'm sure it would have helped both sides.

It is best to let the current situation be, since we as a Board have proven in it's short life that we are doing a respectable job and things are improving on a daily basis.
I and the whole Amphicar community I'm sure, have always had the highest respect for you. I ask for your support on this, it is surely a good and fair solution that could set a standard for the future.
Sincerly,
John Capone IAOC Treasurer



        

Marc,

Discussion and communication are a good thing, no question. As has been noted above, I sure wish you and others would have come forward with concerns and comments years ago during the past two Presidents term’s. You can blame it on my ignorance but regarding the nomination election procedures I just followed what has taken place in the past 4 years. I apologize for this lengthy reply however I would like to provide comment to some of your statements:

You state: " I'm sorry, Ron, for referring to you as "un-elected" President. I should have stated, "un-elected" Board member. I am sorry for that." So that puts me in the same position as the board and your statement: "none of the Board really are legit in my opinion." FYI, I answered via the newsletter during Poda’s term, a request for a board member position. The board then voted and accepted me.
We the current board will discuss the election process, again we were only following was has taken place in the past. Will this happen in the by the end of the year, probably not but we will discuss. Actually my 2-year term, as President doesn’t even officially start until January 1st. We know there has been talk of a mutiny / take over of the current board and there appears to be 6 or 8 people possibly involved. Could these people now want to be placed on a ballot? I am not going to elaborate any further.

Quote: "Ron - I did not assume that you asked for my posting to be removed. Mike Isreal told me that was the case." Again I did not see your posting and if Mike told you this it is not true!

Regarding the bylaws: As David C pointed out very little has changed. We did a few tweaks that included updating the amount of board members, since we had one more then what was allowable and updated the names to the current board members. We also inserted the procedure as to how board members have recently been elected, but also left in the original membership voting procedures. Again this may be due to my ignorance but from being on the board for almost 4 years, this was how it was done. We changed the bylaws to reflect this so all was official. I then stated in the newsletter that the bylaws were updated and urged all to go online to review and comment. None were given. In hindsight we should have mailed the bylaws to all, and could send with the upcoming annual gift. If you had these serious concerns with the bylaws and the past and current "non legit" board why did you not comment? This dates back to previous administrations. As stated above David C worked on the original document and reviewed and approved along with all of us the current minor changes. Everyone respects David C for his ethical standards and he surely would have flagged any misdoing, not that any were intended. I will gladly provide you or anyone a copy of the before and after changes.

You state: "All of this came to a head with John Bevins being removed from the Board. The Bylaws don't really allow you to do that." Yes they do clearly allow this. If you want to discuss please give me a call. I am not going to get back into a mud-slinging contest. Note: this was not the first time a board member was removed however it was under the radar as he ended up quitting prior to his termination.

I (and I don’t use that word often) think we have a great nucleolus and mix of current board members. Their dedication and work ethics are second to none. I know I drive some of them crazy as I am to detailed oriented and can’t have open issues or problems. Thankfully they don’t give me any grief about it and are willing to put in the sometime thankless long hours of volunteer work. In the past 6 months they have jumped through flaming hoops to get things done and restart this club. In my opinion, I think it is a slap in their faces to post to the world a statement that "none of the Board really are legit in my opinion.". I am sure at the end of their current terms, like me, many will call it quits opening up many board positions.

Less we forget, we are a small car club based on weird little cars that go in the water. Can we not get back to the friendships, fun and comradery of what it used to be? Comments and suggestions are always welcome and as my late mother used to say "the phone works both ways."

Ron Green
IAOC President?


        

It seems clear that the current Board is talking about my concerns, and that was my hope....so surely this thread will soon draw to an end. But I do want to clear up a few things in what you have said, Ron. I'll be brief, I promise.

Ron said: We know there has been talk of a mutiny / take over of the current board
I have not had these discussions....other than a passing, "gee...maybe we out to get back in charge of this." I intentionally have stayed clear of anything that could even be considered close to anything of the kind.

Ron said: The board then voted and accepted me.
My point about you not being elected was by the Club Members, as the Bylaws required...not by the Board. I have no question that the Board voted and accepted you.

Ron said: We did a few tweaks that included updating the amount of board members
I don't understand. The current version on the IAOC web page says there are seven members on the Board. (para. 3). But nine are listed at the bottom?

Ron said: but also left in the original membership voting procedures.
Where is this? I do not see it anywhere in the current version on the IAOC web page. As I stated before, the original Bylaws stated this:
-----
All club officers are to be elected by the members of the Club in good standing by means such as the Board shall devise. The election method will be determined as to best accommodate the members. Members of the Board will serve two-year terms. Each year, during the Annual Convention, they will vote and agree that one of them will be the club President.
-----
This is not in the current Bylaws, and please believe that after all the discussion over the last several days, THIS is my main point. If the Board discusses and acts on any thing that I've said, then please discuss this point, and get it back into the Bylaws and into practice...no matter who is to blame for it falling out of practice.


Ron said: I then stated in the newsletter that the bylaws were updated and urged all to go online to review and comment.
If you say that you did that, I don't doubt that you did. I have no question that I was wrong saying that the bulk of the members didn't know. I must have missed that in the newsletter, so I am sorry.


Ron said: I will gladly provide you or anyone a copy of the before and after changes.
I have the original, too, if you have any problems finding the election wording that has been removed from the current.

Ron said: [Bylaws] Yes they do clearly allow this [removing John B.]
Please tell me where? I do not see it anywhere on the Bylaws posted on the IAOC web page. I see Section 4 says the Board can deny Club Membership to someone, but I don't see where you can kick someone off the Board....unless you're telling me that you actually removed John B. from the Club, not just the Board. Where am I missing this?

Ron said: Note: this was not the first time a board member was removed however it was under the radar as he ended up quitting prior to his termination.
The fact that you said the person quit means that no one has ever been removed from the Board, so I don't understand why you are using that example as justification for removing someone now. You said yourself, it didn't happen in the past...the person quit (admitedly under pressure from the Board).

Ron said: I am to detailed oriented and can’t have open issues or problems.
Don't take this wrong, it's a serious question, and I'm not being mean....but if you are so detailed oriented, how could there be so many mistakes in what you are quoting out of the Bylaws as listed above? Is it possible you are looking at a different copy than is posted on the club web page? If so, that would certainly clear up a lot of this...because things that you say are clearly stated in the Bylaws just aren't there.


Ron, Please check into that last item I mentioned....and see if you're looking at something different than is posted on the IAOC web page. Some of your statements are so clearly incorrect that there has to be an explanation.
As for the original Bylaws, if you want to verify anything that I have said pertaining to them, they are dated January 1, 2001. Maybe what you're calling the "old" Bylaws is different than what I'm calling the "old" Bylaws? That, too, could explain how you and I could be seeing things so differently.

Thanks for the discussion...and I'm sorry I wan't as brief as I promised at the beginning of this post!

Marc.


        

Marc,

Again I will plead my ignorance in regards to how others and I were placed on the board. This procedure dates back to how it was done in previous administrations. Assuming that someone may be needed for replacement on the board in a timely manner (hypothetically say the W&W editor?), waiting to generate a ballot and a response back from the membership could take months? I sure wish those whom had issues with this procedure had come forward then and not now.

In the bylaws it states under the heading The Amphicar Board: "The board will decide the Club priorities, have oversight on the budget as managed by the President, create bylaws", etc, etc. This language has remained unchanged as far as I know. I will verify as my IAOC files are on my work computer. As time and things change new bylaws need to be set in place for the betterment of IAOC. Another change we made was to eliminate the 6-month memberships. This created a lot of extra work for our membership chairman (phone calls, etc), plus to us it just didn’t make good sense. Most clubs do have a 1-year membership. This also made the roster managers life much easier, plus now there are fewer issues with the newsletter mailings. I / we do agree that any changes need to be posted in the W&W for comment.

Regarding the number of board members you are correct as it states 7. Some clubs don’t count the position of President as a board member, however this definitely needs discussed and corrected. I personally don’t (and hope) nobody has an issue whether we have 7 or 8 serving on the board. We must remember that these are all volunteer positions. One of the reasons there is now more board member’s: we decided it would be in the best interest of IAOC to have the newsletter editor on the board. A tough job these days. If by chance when his term comes up, and whoever is in that position would not be voted back onto the board, that could present a major problem. Likewise it is the same scenario for the Celina coordinator who now sometime attends the Lake Festival meetings throughout the year. We have Mike Bayman who lives close by and we thought that it would be in the best interest of IAOC to have him on the board. These are a few examples of our thought process. Could we switch out these positions by vote through the membership, absolutely. Would it make sense, probably not. Would it be for the betterment of IAOC, in my opinion no!

We actually posted in the W&W issue #134 that the bylaws were going to be updated as a project, and then announced in issue #135 it was completed. We received no comments, concerns, etc from anyone until now. Again comments are welcome.

Regarding John: Under conflict of interest there is some language stating ""or otherwise use his or her official position for personal gain" The thread that got deleted had a recent board vote that I posted. We unanimously thought it not in the best interest of IAOC that an individual who thought it was ok for the board members (and no members), to buy up Amphicar’s or any parts, or accept "perks" that may come into contact@amphicar.com to be ethical. We are not saying that happened but the potential was there, however there are other issues. I can’t tell you how hard and sad it was for all of us to come up with this decision to make this change. I am not going to get into another mud-slinging contest on this subject in front of the world. Please call me to discuss if you want. I have saved all the relevant correspondence regarding the entire conversations on the subject.

I / we promise we will discuss your concerns. Please note that the W&W #136 has been completed and unfortunately we won’t be able to announce some of these recent conversations, concerns, etc. I don’t think it would be fair to our newsletter editor considering the amount of time he has spent on this issue to have to redo, edit, ad and reformat the completed W&W.

We certainly think that IAOC is now back on track and headed in the right direction, we hope that majority of our members agree

Ron Green


        

This comment is a HUGE problem. You see, I NEVER used my position for personal gain (in fact it cost me money EVERY month for which the club never paid me anyway) and they admit it didn't happen. Yet I was tossed off the board based on "potential." This stemmed from a poorly written attack on me which included unfounded accusations by one board memeber who never met met nor has ever spoken to me. The rest of the board just followed on their secret mission to remove me.

My opinion (and that of many other clubs and people) is that it is no big deal if somebody gets a "perk" here or there and it's almost unavoidable. (Ron gets "perks" by being on TV, why wasn't he tossed? The term "Perk" can mean many things. What perks have the others gotten in secret??

I NEVER said or thought is was OK to use the position for personal gain nor did I ever do so. My words are being twisted and I have been attacked and removed from a duly elected position for my opinion and NOT my actions. Now how is this a fair outcome?? There was a vote and I abided by that outcome. Do you really want a board that will remove you because your opinion is different and without any proof? That is NOT democracy nor is it the way our board should be ran. His "sadness" is so much that he can't even come up with a sincere apology or a phone call. Save it for the lions, ron

As a member in good standing, I move that the bylaws are changed back to actually include the paid club members in the process. As it is the board has the potential to create a board that can elect themselves and change the bylaws without input of the PAID members (oops, already done). The bylaws should always be put to a vote by members as well as every board position or there is no system of checks and balances. I was duly elected by the members and the only board member removed by the board solely based on perceived "Potential" and that my opinion was different. This is in your best interest?? Think about that my fellow members!

Your voice is you most powerful tool! I am glad that my demise has gotten many of you the speak up and the ensuing conversation is great! There have been some attacks made by a single immature board member which shows further proof of the way they are going. The power is in your hands, my friends! You must speak up to make change. I am the club martyr and I guess that is my new role (would the board please create a Martyrdom" position for me? I have already been president, treasurer and webmaster). I'm OK with that as my situation will have an effect on the current regime's actions and their future and that is for the members benefit.


        

John,

I am not going to get into another mud slinging contest. I had 2 calls yesterday from members who were concerned with this thread and the direction that it was headed. I don’t know what else I can say and if this keeps going it will get ugly, and the dirty laundry will again be out for the world to see. Marc and myself had what I consider a good discussion and the outcome will be for the betterment of IAOC. We see his points and hopefully he understands what the thought process was with some of ours. All will be discussed in the near future.

You want to zero in on me and that is ok. It was an action by 8 and not 1, unfortunately my position required me to carry out the task. Potential isn’t the only issue. A wise man told me the other day I have 2 choices here. One was to keep tossing grenades and make IAOC look bad or two, swallow my tongue and move forward. I choose number two however I am only a phone call away.

Good luck in your upcoming surgery, I hope everything turns out for the best and the healing process is quick.

Ron Green



        

This is not "mud slinging" as I am not attacking you maliciously, It is a simple discussion with legitimate questions. You shhould not be surprised that I have nothing to hide or I wouldn't be here. My reputation speaks for itself.

You are in the spotlight because you are the president. None of the other board members choose to speak up so it's on you. This will run it's course and I will live with the outcome. However I will not just capitulate without defending myself. All I can say Ron is that you put yourself in this position. You (the board) ran me off based on a mere "possibility" and unsubstantiated accusations (show me the proof!) by a board member who never met me and yet you tell me repeatedly that I need "100% factual evidence." when I have a problem.

So which standard will it be? Are you going to hold yourself to the same high standard that you hold me to? Will simple accusations be adequate to eliminate a board member or do you need "100% factual evidence" before they are removed? This does not reflect what I believe our members want and deserve. We need democracy not hypocrisy.